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Old 20-06-07, 10:05   #101
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Kyle, just to clear something up for a cirtain someone....

Can you confirm that it is true, that in some cases if you dont have big enough rocker breathers on your car, oil can be pushed through the turbo seals as it has nowhere to go? I've been told by at least 4 reputible mechanics the same thing.
Reason being is that I sold a turbo to a guy that was perfect when it came off my car (which my mechanic can confirm because the last time the car was even started was when it was on the dyno). And the guy says the turbo is ****ed and sends it back to me without even trying bigger breathers, now I have taken the turbo to a guy to get checked out, he blew compressed air into it and no air bypassed the seals, he also removed both of the housings and had a look, everything has come back fine.
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Old 21-06-07, 09:28   #102
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I don't think so... rarely will oil be pushed through the seals if you even had 1x 1/2" breather setup, I have seen engines that make 550rwhp on a 2 litre engine running 37psi and with only 1/2" breathers, and there was no issues. The only time I have EVER seen it do that was when they had the breathers capped altogether accidently when they first started it.

However, what will DEFINATELY make it do it is if the engine flows too much oil, garrett ball bearing turbo's only need bout 1-1.2 litres a minute of oilflow, while yes, they have a built in restrictor, it only does so much, so if you stick 3 litres/min of oil at its inlet it will still flow way more oil than at 1.2 litres a minute. We have just had this same problem on a dry sump GT42 2JZ, was flowing 3 litres/min, put a restrictor in the feed line and took it down to 1.2, and no more smoke.

Simply run the engine with the feed line disconnected and into a 1.25 litre coke bottle for 15 seconds. Multiply the amount by 4 and you have litres/min. Obviously someone will need to hold the compressor wheel of the turbo to stop ot spinning while you do this, otherwise you'll junk the turbo. You would get way more problems than just leaking turbo seals if your engine had so much breathing restriction it caused it to pump it out the seals.

You might want to check their oil drain setup and size 2.

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Old 21-06-07, 15:35   #103
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this is a great idea 6boost you sound like a real champ!

just wondering if its worth putting a 5 speed behind my rb30 turb instead of the 3 speed auto already on. have been getting quotes and is way too pricey for me, any ideas???

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Old 22-06-07, 00:21   #104
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? Manifold

Hi 6Boost, If you were turbo'ing a N/A, would you Use the Standard N/A Inlet or get a Turbo inlet, What would be the Pro's and Cons of either Manifold for Boosting. I should add that it will be a street car and a quick spool up is Important to me, will drag occasionly, 200-220 RWKW wanted, Power porting may also be used on either manifold.
Also Which Cam would you use, Standard N/A or standard turbo cam, Running standard N/A compression with a cometic head gasket.
Wanting to run Standard convertor and have it on boost by then, will spend money on the right turbo to do the job.
3.45:1 LSD
? standard VLT exhaust manifold or ? lo-mount exhaust manifold.
I realy want an excelent street car with Instantanious boost or almost Instantanious boost that will be Very fun to drive.

Steve.
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Last edited by vl-blt1; 22-06-07 at 16:48.
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Old 22-06-07, 19:24   #105
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benihama, spend the money and get a Keas 4 speed jatco and a TCE converter, IMO a decent auto is more fun to drive, as well as being faster in almost all circumstances except circuit, and even then there are people on the forum that regularly circuit race their VL with auto's. If street racing is your thing, like around the streets, and down shifting into corners etc like your at bathurst, then sure, get the manual, but if you want a quick street car, ask some of the other guys on the forum with a KEAS box in their car how great they are to drive and you'll get the same answer I have given.

Steve, the NA intake flows both more air, and has longer runners so spools earlier, it should make more power everywhere over the turbo manifold. An XF throttle bdy is a nice upgrade, and so too is power porting the manifold. I would use neither the stock NA cam nor the turbo cam and get yourself a good camshaft and springs, and not a small cam either, something with about 220@.050 and .475-.480" of lift, tighe do a really nice grind, or a wade 818b is similar. This will bleed off some cylinder pressure with your NA compression and give you the ability to run more boost, and make more power, should spool as early as well.

Turbo choice will be critical to your stellar boost response, and many people have made far more power than you are chasing with a stock manifold, I'd say if it was the difference between getting a better turbo or a camshaft, vs getting a aftermarket exhaust manifold, keep the stock manifold, get it ported by someone, and use a nicely sized turbo, a GT3076 with a .82 would do nicely, and spool faster than the stock turbo on there now. They are now also available in internal gate, saving you even more $$, and I think the smaller comp cover of the 3076 means you don't need to space it of the manifold, but I'd have to check first.

Cheers...........................6BOOST
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Old 22-06-07, 21:00   #106
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thanks that sounds good, but how much am i looking at for a Keas 4 speed jatco and a TCE converter??? Are they hard to get a hold of???
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Old 22-06-07, 23:16   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6BOOST
I don't think so... rarely will oil be pushed through the seals if you even had 1x 1/2" breather setup, I have seen engines that make 550rwhp on a 2 litre engine running 37psi and with only 1/2" breathers, and there was no issues. The only time I have EVER seen it do that was when they had the breathers capped altogether accidently when they first started it.

However, what will DEFINATELY make it do it is if the engine flows too much oil, garrett ball bearing turbo's only need bout 1-1.2 litres a minute of oilflow, while yes, they have a built in restrictor, it only does so much, so if you stick 3 litres/min of oil at its inlet it will still flow way more oil than at 1.2 litres a minute. We have just had this same problem on a dry sump GT42 2JZ, was flowing 3 litres/min, put a restrictor in the feed line and took it down to 1.2, and no more smoke.

Simply run the engine with the feed line disconnected and into a 1.25 litre coke bottle for 15 seconds. Multiply the amount by 4 and you have litres/min. Obviously someone will need to hold the compressor wheel of the turbo to stop ot spinning while you do this, otherwise you'll junk the turbo. You would get way more problems than just leaking turbo seals if your engine had so much breathing restriction it caused it to pump it out the seals.

You might want to check their oil drain setup and size 2.

6BOOST
Hey kyle, couple of Q's
You say that it may be best to use a restrictor for a GT turbo.
Would you happen to know what size restrictor thereabouts, am sure each turbo may be different, but a rough idea is a start.
Also would it be better to measure flow from the turbo drain not feed as that will actually tell what is going through the turbo??

Ah also to nugget, i had that problem with oil blowing out the seals. What it turned out to be was a blocked breather and pressure just built up in the engine/turbo and that was the least path of resistance. I realised after 2 turbo rebuilds. Now i have my catchcan as free flowing as i can and venting to the turbo inlet(emission laws too) which can have a slight neg pressure in the sump. At the time i had only a small external filter that blocked up and caused all the problems!!!
Hope that helps

Umm i see that you cut and weld a wastegate pipe off the turbine flange, just wondering what consumables you use re welding?? am assuming Stick welding, and am also guessing high nickel rods?? You'd preheat the turbine then weld it then cover it to let it cool over time yah (prevent cracking)??
If you could let me in on the secrets that would be great.
Oh btw, have decided to give it a crack at making my own manifold, sorry i didn't get back to ya. Just have some leave up my sleve and thought what the heck.
Cheers Robb

Last edited by Dj labby; 22-06-07 at 23:21.
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Old 23-06-07, 10:09   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benihama
thanks that sounds good, but how much am i looking at for a Keas 4 speed jatco and a TCE converter??? Are they hard to get a hold of???
Depends how much power you'd like down the track, if you just want a mild stage 2 upgrade, you can only run up to 15psi and about 220rwkw. Full manual I think takes you up to around 300rwkw in the basic form, and I'm pretty sure that, plus modifying your stock converter would set you back less than 3g.

Robb, I didn't say its best to restrict a GT turbo, they all have built in restrictors, What I intended to point out, was that if your having problems pushing oil through the seals, which is very few people, then you should remove the FEED hose, run it into a bottle, and measure the flow, they only need about 1-1.2 litre/min, you'd have to start small with your restrictor, and drill it out one step at a time to get the desired flow. There is no one size fits all solution.

Kyle.
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Old 23-06-07, 21:24   #109
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Hey kyle, I was wondering what your view is for the best ignition set up for around the 350-400hp mark ? is there any use going for a six coil set up ? even with a cdi ? or just use a cdi with a single coil ? cheers mate.
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Old 23-06-07, 23:57   #110
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Thanks kyle, Thats great news, i didnt want to buy another inlet, want to keep it stock looking, I was hoping to make peak power of 200-220 RWKW @ 5500 rpm so I would be able to get the quickest et possible with the standard gearing 3.45:1, Does that tigh cam you recomended make peak HP at about 5500 rpm?
And how much could I get a cam, lifter and spring set for?

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Old 24-06-07, 11:59   #111
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Cam wise, the tighe cam with 220@.50, the least rpm i have seen them make peak power is 5800rpm with a big hi-flow and n/a intake/ standard exhaust mani. Generally though, with different brands of intakes/runners, different exhaust manifolds, 3450 or bigger turbs,
the average is around 6500-6700rpm i have found, and i know of about 7-8 cars with this cam.
cheers
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Old 24-06-07, 16:56   #112
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Thanks Jet R31 for that info,
Could 6boost tell me would the standard N/a cam make peak power at 5500 with a standard N/a Inlet, standard Turbo exhaust manifold, and Using either a gt3076 with .82 or .63 turbine housing or a gt3071 with .86 or .64 turbine housing.

Im in a quandry over compressor housing sizes on these two turbo's.
Goal, 200-220 RWKW with the quickest possible spool time making peak power at 5500 rpm with hopefully stock N/A cam, but will change if nescacary to accomplish peak at 5500, Dont want the turbo to run out of puff either, apparently the AVO stage 2 intercooler I have can support 20psi, so the smaller turbo may be O.K.
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Old 24-06-07, 21:36   #113
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yah i understand that. I had a few dramas as i've mentioned, to remedy i had a better breathing system and actually used a restrictor. drilled it out 1/8". It was for a plain bearing type. I had no idea about the correct formula or amount, so just guessedimated. I think it worked, didn't have a problem afterwards, though sold the setup not long after.
Thanks
Hey would you let me in on the best rods and that to use for castiron??
Cheers
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Old 25-06-07, 09:47   #114
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vl-blt1 Steve, I have no idea why your trying to keep this majical 5500rpm peak power point, as the higher you make peak power, the more power you make. Also the higher you make peak torque, the less it will prob detonate due to cylinder pressure, and lastly, no matter what camshaft you put in this, if you use an adjustable vernier cam gear, which is only about $200, you can dial in the power band anywhere you want, if it makes peak power too high for you, advance it 4-6 degrees and it will spool earlier and bring peak power rpm down.

Considering your limited modifications, I highly doubt seeing you make peak power at 6500rpm, you'd need quite an efficient engine to sustain power that high, and most RB30's I have worked on that aren't reasonably extensively modified make peak power under 6000rpm.

As for welding rods, I Send the housings out to a guy that welds marine turbine housings, I'll see if he'll tell me what he uses but I do know they are tigged, using stick welding rods with the flux knocked off, and the housings are pre heated and air cooled.

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Old 25-06-07, 11:51   #115
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Originally Posted by 6BOOST
As for welding rods, I Send the housings out to a guy that welds marine turbine housings, I'll see if he'll tell me what he uses but I do know they are tigged, using stick welding rods with the flux knocked off, and the housings are pre heated and air cooled.

6BOOST
Sweet thanks, thats all i need to know.
cheers
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Old 25-06-07, 11:51   #116
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Ooops double post.
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Old 25-06-07, 11:52   #117
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vl-blt1 Steve, I have no idea why your trying to keep this majical 5500rpm peak power point, as the higher you make peak power, the more power you make.
Thanks kyle, the reason Im chasing 5500 rpm is because if I Keep the standard 3.45:1 gearing, thats the rpm that will get me over the line with the quickest Et possible given my Goal of 225 RWKW, just have to adjust the tyre size accordingly to get the perfect gear ratio, about 25" diameter.
Apart from not having to spend more money setting up new a diff gear ratio, the lower in the power band I can keep it, the taller the Overall gear ratio I can Keep, and considering Its going to be Driven almost Everyday, That also translates into Better fuel consumption as well on the Street.

If I could get that power at 5300, I could also run 26" high tyres with the same 3.45:1 ratio, raising the overall gearing further, translating into more Economy.

It also means that the power band is Lower Overall, and then I can also use the standard vlt stall convertor, as it wont then be acting as a brake on the engine at lower speed, which would require me to spend more money on a stall convertor.

My Goal is to Basically Build the Quickest Driveable Street Package I can on Mostly Standard Parts, Except Turbo, Keas stage III tranny running a standard Vlt torque convertor, Gas research setup, AVO stage II Intercooler, Cometic Head gasket retaining the standard N/a compression, Cold Air Intake and an aftermarket ECU. I dont need more than 225 RWKW, but I'd want that power figure with this setup at 5300 - 5500rpm.

My Moroso Power Speed Calculator tells me that this package (225 RWKW @ 5500 rpm with 3.45:1 gearing and 25" tyres and 3500lbs weight of calais/driver/stereo) would be good for an 11.1 Et over the Quarter with a perfect Hookup, with a trap speed of 119mph. Though 11.6 - 12.0 is more likely in a real world scenario.

I also dont have much Moulah, I have a family and Im on a Limited Budget, and this Dictates to Me to build the car this way.
Though It Will be Interesting to see if I can Get a N/A Vl Converion with very limited mods into the 11s.

Hope this explains my reasons, and that theyr'e grounded in the real world?

To get the power figure Im chasing at 5500 RPM, I believe that you would just run more Boost into it, so it makes that power earlier?
Would I be Right in assuming that? And also, would you believe that that power (225 RWKW) be availabe on 20psi or less at that engine speed with the standard N/A compression, with either the Gt 3076 or Gt 3071 ? 20psi is aparently where my Intercooler efficiency starts to drop off, and I dont want the added expense of direct water Injection etc...

Thanks Kyle, I apreciate your Input and I hope my reasoning makes sense. Steve.

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Old 25-06-07, 19:17   #118
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Firstly, your not going to run 11.1 with 225 rwkw. Secondly, your not going to run 11.1 with a standard torque converter, and thridly, you haven't taken into account converter slip in any of your rpm calculations for tire size and rpm at various MPH's.

While I commend you on working it all out the way you have, in the real world, its just not that simple. Take for example OVL087 from these forums. He has a built engine with forged pistons, camshaft, mild port work, Power ported NA manifold with XF throttle, 6boost turbo kit with GT30 turbo, turbosmart gate, full 3" mandrel exhaust with no cat and one muffler, transbrakes KEAS jatco with 3300rpm converter and shimmed LSD. On 23psi with 50/50 pump fuel and tolulene this car ran a 10.87 off the footbrake with an awesome 60ft and running 26x8.5" tyres.

You goal is to run almost as quick, with a heavier calais on 80kw less power. Trust me when I say his was a well matched combination, with all the thing syou'll be doing and more, and he had no wheel spin, a good 60ft, and that was off the footbrake as you will be. I think you need to either adjust your power goals slightly, or your time goals.

Now in having said that, I am by no means AT ALL saying that your not close to the money, I think to run your 11.1, you'll need more boost, prob some good fuel like 50% tolulene, a converter will pretty much be mandatory, and forget the 5500rpm rev limit, as not only does the stock converter have slip, the bigger converter will have even more, I'd say around 7%. I'd be aiming for about 265-270rwkw, which is doable on your NA engine with stock intake and exhaust, and see how ya go, and like I said, camshaft will be essential, and dial in your powerband with a vernier camgear.

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Old 25-06-07, 20:45   #119
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Thanks, thats just the sort of info I need, I'd realy be Happy in the twelves, if my setup the way I described was anywhere in the twelves thats cool, I just figured from all the data I'd be in the 11s, even a high 11 like 11.99 would be good, just to say I'd cracked 11s, but bragging rights aside, I cant afford to spend more money on the car than what Ive already allowed for, and I believe it could be a killer fun street car, even as a 12 second car with boost quickly on tap, and still get decent fuel economy too. I would rather sacrifice the ET and have a car thats on boost sooner and is a better street car, than to have a convertor that robs fuel and slips around town. Never mind, 11 is only a number.
Then again, I might just say to hell with it and go a bigger convertor, lower gear ratio and higher RPM.
thanks for your help, steve.

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Old 26-06-07, 12:19   #120
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You can always do both mate, build it now to your budget(and I still highly advise the camshaft with NA compression and your setup), run the turbo you were always going to, and run your 20psi and pump fuel, and you'll absolutely bust out a 12, then you have a baseline, you can add a converter later when and if the funds permit, even a second handy, and drop it some more once you've had your fun, they really are still driveable, and I shoud point out that a bigger converter will have you on boost sooner and make the car feel more responsive, not less, however it may suffer slightly with fuel economy.

Having said that, as your turbo will boost so early, you'll have a hard time keeping it off boost, so it may chew through quite a lot of fuel, and the converter will lessen the load and give a bit of a cushion and may actually increase fuel efficiency..... But maybe it won't, just an thought:o)

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Old 27-06-07, 21:42   #121
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Hey kyle im looking at buying darrens (JETR31) cam (old one he is removing) just quickly will this cam suit a standard head? im running a gt35/40 what sort of power range should i expect with this cam?

Cheers
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Old 27-06-07, 23:45   #122
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Yeah, that makes sense, I was thinking about a stage 1 jpc/crow cam, they reckon that would be peak power at 5500, what would the equivalent in a tigh cam be worth? would it need springs? they reckon the stage 1 jpc does, I didnt get the specs off them, but I dunno if theyre just trying to upsell me, would you like fries with that kind of deal.
Are you able to give me a price and specs on a similar tigh cam and a price on springs if i cant get away with the stockies?

Thanks again, steve.
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Old 28-06-07, 17:33   #123
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Quote:
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Hey kyle im looking at buying darrens (JETR31) cam (old one he is removing) just quickly will this cam suit a standard head? im running a gt35/40 what sort of power range should i expect with this cam?

Cheers
Ben
Users of this cam in s.a that are on this forum to ask:
Monster-3540 ase plenum/ase exhaust
vl nitron-3540-bresciani intake-extreme exhaust mani
blackjet-standard intake-standard exhaust-3540
Wyndup- 3540-na intake with jd custom- standard exhaust mani
Burst-3540-bresciani plenum-subzero exhaust mani

standard heads fine, they typically peak at 6500rpm and hold the power to 6700rpm as a average
when slightly retarted.
cheers
darren

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Old 28-06-07, 17:39   #124
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Yep, worked good with previous setup, im going to a Rajab plenum and high mount but keeping this cam with a standard head. I couldnt tell you the 'powerband' but wasnt laggy with a 0.82 35/40 and made power right through to 6800 from memory.
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Old 28-06-07, 17:43   #125
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More comp, rajab etc..torque monster:)
Be like VLCOTY's (jasons)setup nearly then, that another same cam user..nearly running..will
upset a few people on anzacs this summer
cheers
darren

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