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Old 10-05-07, 18:21   #26
kalais6
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Excellent, roughly the same price I was looking at to get one done here, but without the hassles of finding the head and getting the work done.

Cheers

Kyle
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Old 10-05-07, 20:31   #27
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Yep, i know all that, seen it first hand, turbo kit vs turbo kit
one on a 8.00 comp motor vs 6.8, everything the same on a CA18T
MASSIVE difference, around 40rwkw more on pump fuel on 6psi less boost for the high comp motor,The low comps motors power under the curve was **** aswell, making it "peaky" in the powerband, the trick is like you say, suppressing detonation, but if you keep it at bay
it drives the turbo heaps harder. Camshaft wise, on 2 valve OHV motors, i found you had to run
stupid amounts of duration to make pump fuel power to bleed of compression, totally ****ed up my corolla, was **** to drive, made heaps more power though.

I am thinking 9.2.1 atmo comp, 20 percent water/fuel ratio, this with a ethanol based 98 fuel would give around a 114-116 octane rating:), with a CDI versus around 8 percent before no CDI, and 27-28psi on pump fuel, I guess it would make around 550rwkw on the dyno i use and would pretty much full hook on the street with 28x10.5 et streets.

Oh yeh, i am changing a few things on my water system aswell, so either let me
play with it first kyle or let me know when you want to do it or tell me before you
buy anything
cheers
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Old 10-05-07, 21:22   #28
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Would you be kind enough to list, forged rods and pistons, brands, price and hoe good they are. And also bearings, brand, price and quality. Im looking to rebuild, with 400 rwkw +, on race fuel, so comp ratios, and any other help, suggestions would be fantastic. If its not asking to much, your thoughts on autronic vs motec, price and quality.

Thanks for the help, great thread.

Jason
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Old 11-05-07, 10:17   #29
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You mean something around 250 deg@.050" and 560" of lift darren;o)

I'm actually thinking about pulling the dry ice cooler off my car and fitting water injection, but at the same time, I don't want to go backwards. I've got a big alloy tank that I made for my old water to air intercooler and radiator header tank, as I've cut a big hole in my inner gaurd for my cooler, this tank actually would fit back there perfect and cover the hole for now, so it kills 2 birds with 1 stone. The only reason for thinking of changing, is everytime I break something, I waste ice, which is $4 a kilo, and you have too pack it the second before you go out as well. I'm all a bit up in the air at the moment, plus I guess with WI your looking to make the air more dense, cool the charge and combustion process(although I know the water stops det too) and my dry ice cooler outlet temps are -38 during a run, so i'm kinda in that territory already. I'll let you know if I go ahead with it.

I think 9.2:1 is getting a bit too high for a single cam engine, but keep in mind you can use NA pistons and cometic make a .73" gasket, which will give you 8.8:1. John from toowoomba ran a 10.8 on avgas with this setup and it works beautifully, spools a big old plain bearing T51 HKS turbo no worries at all on the brake, it actually surpsrised the hell out of me. I think that would be a better option for ya.


------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now, as for the engine internal stuff, I strongly recommend King Bearings, do some research on their website, the top layer is 17 TIMES thicker than a trimetal bearing, they can also take twice as much heat. You need to run big clearances on an RB to keep the big ends alive, I run 2.5 thou on the mains and 2.2-2.75 thou on the conrods, depending on quality of the rods. There is also oiling system mods that need to be done, such as radiusing all the oil galleries, and drill the main oil feeds out to 7mm with a long shank 7mm drill. Also need to match the new 7mm oil gallery to the bearing shell, which doesn't line up with the hole properly. All of these will prob need to be done by a competent engine builder, but in my opinion, are vital to a good healthly RB.

As for components, you simply can't go past Spool rods and CP pistons. Cp's are widely regarded as the best in the world in piston design and manufacture, they aren't any dearer than most pistons(other than some of the crap no name brands), so thats a given, and they only make 1 off teh shelf RB30 piston, which has a compression ratio of 8.2:1. Spool rods have been tested by Luke at Tighe engineering, who had a company they use for metal testing do some material testing on a spool rod. The test results came back that the material met or exceeded all requiremtns of 4340 chromoly, and was unbiased and not paid for in any way by the manufacturer. While some of the others on the market may very well be as well, how can you beat $890 and proof they are legit?? I'd rather go that than some eagles or similar that I don't know anything about.

Will reply on motec vs autronic later.

Kyle.
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Old 11-05-07, 16:23   #30
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Sounds good, p.m sent, theres no way on gods green earth i would get
rid of a dry ice cooler, spools the turbo so much harder and intake air temps are
crazy low. Water injection actually does not lower intake air temps much at all
but lowers combustion pressure LOTS, making a motor last a lot longer and having less load on all components for the given horsepower, so bearing/rods/pistons last a lot longer, also keeps everything internally clean of carbon deposits. So good for making stocky motors last with high hp.
cheers
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Old 11-05-07, 18:05   #31
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Trust me, if you'd wasted $500 on dry ice hear and there, you'd start to wonder whether its just easier to use nitrous.

As for the lowering of air temps, I was strictly speaking pre-turbo WI, not normal WI setups. I very much doubt I could run both dry ice and WI, as at the start of a run, my air temps can be as low as -60 before my burnout, and are still -40 when I leave the line. I'd say there is a very good chance it would freeze both water, or water meth straight out of the air!!

Now as for Motec V Autronic, for 1, I have motec in my own car with a CDI8, so there is about 6g worth of computer and I obviously back the product, I think in a full drag car where inputs, outputs, and data logging capabilities can mean everything, as well as expandability, the motec wins. However, in pure street car or street come race car terms, the Autronic sh1ts all over the motec in fuel delivery and drivability.

I may be partially wrong, but how I understand the aftermarket management scene is Motec is similar(although more advanced) to most computers on the market, in that it is just a big calculator. It cross references X boost/vacuum with Y rpm in the map, plus or minus any correction values that the user has given it. This is fine, but as Simon from nizpro pointed out in the latest zoom, how does the computer know what it has to put in at 3000rpm/15psi of boost, when its sensors tell it its at 2900rpm and 14psi of boost?? This is the common reason when you go to the race track, and cars will run different AF ratios at the exact same rpm in each gear, the longer it takes to rev through that rpm range, the more it works on teh correct figure, as its actually at that rpm for long enough to deliver 3000rpm/15psi fuel as that exact point.

So many cars, especially big hp cars, run richer by half to 1 point in gears 1 and 2, and lean out in top gear. Now autronic isn't totally like that, its actually quite similar to a factory style Gen 3 or falcon computer and quite smart on its own. These have their own inbuilt calculators, that know that for a given capacity(or volume) at a given rpm, with a known Volumetric efficency(how good the engine flows air) it will need Y fuel and timing. While you are the one that changes the fuel numbers to get it where it should be, if you have a look at an autronic map, they don't work in milliseconds of injector opening, but VE figures. Of every autronic car I have ever been in, they have driven and idled like a standard vehicle. A really good example is some of the forum uses here that are also my friends and customers, a few have autronic, and a few Motec. The autronic cars all idle nicer, cruise nicer, and seem to use less fuel, and I'd say that they'd run more consistant on the track too from gear to gear.

My sumation being, that the SM4 is $1500 cheaper than a M600, it has as many functions, datalogging capabilities and inputs/outputs as the Motec, as well as fantastic autotune abilities. Like I said though, I have Motec, and I wouldn't change it, but I'd def use Autronic in 90% of my customers cars.

Kyle.
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Old 12-05-07, 01:05   #32
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Thank you Kyle, so far every thing you have said has been 100% to what I have been told by a very reputable tuner. Thanks for your help mate, Ill bee looking for rods and so forth in the very near future with some luck.

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Old 12-05-07, 23:28   #33
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Kyle,
on a 2J, how much sooner would you expect a 9.2-9.3:1 CR spool a turbo compared to a std CR 2J which i think is roughly 8.5:1?
all other things being equal like cams, turbo ect

my cams seem to be roughly the same size as the 1s in your 1G, maybe slightly bigger but wont know till they arrive
turbo isnt an off the shelf item tho
78.8mm front wheel with roughly an 80mm rear wheel that with a 1.01AR rear housing hits 30+ boost slightly quicker than 76mm turbo with a smaller rear (0.8-0.9)

the reason i ask is that ive got a 1.28 rear housing and they estimate 300rpm later spool than the 1.01 (but more topend) and was wondering if my higher CR would bring the spool back down to near the 1.01 housing?

cheers
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Old 13-05-07, 15:14   #34
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Tough call, I'd say maybe 200rpm or there abouts. Always keep in mind though, that there are varying degrees of spool and response. What I mean by that, a big turbo will always be a big turbo, and a bigger housing will always be a bigger housing. If you increase the CR, or capacity slightly, say 3000cc to 3200cc, while yes, it will spool the turbo sooner, and often in wide open throttle full power runs, you will see faily good differences between one and the other, on the street, transient response, from light thottle to full throttle or vacuum to full throttle can still feel a lot lazier than just thinking 100% purely about full boost RPM.

I read something about this turbo you have bought somewhere else. Have you got a link to some information?? How are they getting it on boost faster than a smaller compressor AND exhaust wheeled T76?? All things being equal?? I have seen the turbine wheel, and it doesn't look like a new GT style wheel, so I would have though that would be less efficient, however if you have some info, I'd love to read it.

Kyle.
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Old 13-05-07, 15:54   #35
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ill try and get some info on it for you but the guys that sell it dont like giving out the details on it
i can link you to the guy that had done tests with it, ill find it now
heres the link
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=334970
he actually says its as responsive as his old 74GTS and backed up by the guys at full race
another guy also says it spools a touch faster than his 76GTS
theres another thread that Swantko has posted in where he says the 74-76GTS had a smaller rear housing in the 0.8-0.9 range and the "Swantko Turbo" spools a touch quicker with a 1.01 rear
they also say the transient respone between gear changes is unreal with this turbo

as for the rear wheel, its a 12 blade instead of the usual 10 i think it is and apparently out of the Garrett race program from a couple years ago
its not used in any of the the off the shelf Garrett turbos

i will also be grabing the 1.01 rear housing for this turbo and testing both of them to see the difference ect

edit: just found some more info that Larry from SP worte about the turbo
all tests he has done with this turbo, it has spooled near identicle to a gt42-76 but the bigger turbo makes about 100rwhp more

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=419192
thats another thread there where swantko chimes in
Quote:
My results showed that this turbo (on a full-race manifold/Ross Machine intake) spooled virtually identically to my old 74GTS on the stock intake and HKS exhaust manifold.

The 74 had a .81 housing (I think) vs the 1.01 on the bigger turbo.
theres heaps of info on SF.com about this turbo but there search function doesnt work anymore

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Old 13-05-07, 17:30   #36
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how much do your t3 flanged manifolds weigh?
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Old 13-05-07, 20:11   #37
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im aiming for 300rwkw and so far have ordered a 3582r (.82a/r) high mount manifold, 44mm tial wastgate and an 044. What cam would you recommend (no head porting) and injector size? Im looking at some powerflow 600cc from one of the other guys on here and controllong it all will be a micrtoech lt10s. Any suggestions?

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Old 15-05-07, 09:09   #38
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I think about 10kg, depends on which one and what for, but most single entry VL manifolds are 11kg with wrapping on the post office scales.


Camshaft choice depends on many things, but with your lack of headwork, I wouldn't be going too large, you will however have to change valve springs, which can be done on the car if need be. IS the engine built?? What work is done and what else does your engine have?? What cooler and exhaust are you running?? I'd highly recommend a Tighe cams 1665C, which is what a lot of forum members are running, from Tempest, OVL087 and JetR31 to name a few, most have made 290kw to darrens 470rwkw, and I know of all the cams, these are the ones that back to back have proved the best results over some of the wade offerings of similar size like the 818b. One of my customers upgraded to this cam recently over a surecam camshaft with similar figures and picked up 20rwhp.

That cam has a 220@.050", however if you'd like something that bit bigger, the next size up is a 0966, which is a tiny bit extra lift and is 230@.050, this would better suit a built engine and if you had plans for head work and more power later.

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Old 15-05-07, 17:26   #39
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engine is fully rebuilt (no forgies yet, engine was rebuilt before i bought it) and im just gonna see how long the pistons will last. Exhaust is a full 3" straight through no cat, 1 high flow muffler, intake is a ASE intercooler and plennum kit with a xf throttle body. 3ltr surge tank, cai, ic&e 9mm leads, ignition coil and im ordering the rest of there ignition setup soon.
What springs should i be using? cam sounds good, and at a guess what sort of boost do you think ill need to get the 300rwkw mark?
Ben
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Old 15-05-07, 17:58   #40
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Any back to back testing between the camshaft with 220@.50 and
the larger 230@.50, power wise and powerband shifting wise.
cheers
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Old 16-05-07, 08:54   #41
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Kyle,

I bought Andys ARE cooler.. will that be sufficent on the twin turbo ls1 kit u sell?
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Old 16-05-07, 10:29   #42
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Kyle, would you be able to give me a rough estimate on when i should get boost on my new setup im doing?

Basically It's a 26/30 with forged rods, cp 9:1 forgies (pretty sure it should drop to around 8.5:1 when the head goes on yeh? And a 1000hp TA45 with 1.05 rear? Its going to have a minor port job on the head, but im going to be using standard cams with adjustable gears and i also have a 550kw transbraked jatco currently with a 3800 stall.

any help would be muchly appreciated.
cheers

also, with this setup, would i be wrong to expect 450-500rwhp on pump fuel with around 23psi?
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Old 17-05-07, 09:36   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NTMID 8
What springs should i be using? cam sounds good, and at a guess what sort of boost do you think ill need to get the 300rwkw mark?
Ben
I think they are called 5003's, from Performance Springs, they have a website. Based on your engine stick with the 1665C, that will do everything you need for the engine you currently have. And Don't get the springs with a "D" suffix on the end, these are heavier and suited to larger camshafts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet R31
Any back to back testing between the camshaft with 220@.50 and
the larger 230@.50, power wise and powerband shifting wise.
cheers
darren
Not as far as I know Daz, the 966 and bigger 967 have about 10deg more seat duration, so I'd expect maybe 100-150rpm later spool, but they would also bleed off some more cylinder pressure, and your thinking of upping the comp, so I'd say if anything, you'll prob get faster spool than you do now and more power everywhere, I'd think at least 20rwkw at the power your making now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgz
Kyle,

I bought Andys ARE cooler.. will that be sufficent on the twin turbo ls1 kit u sell?
Yes, will be fine, same as what I used on the car I did except I used 91mm thick, should be fine for low boost application to 400rwkw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [.nugget.]
Kyle, would you be able to give me a rough estimate on when i should get boost on my new setup im doing?

Basically It's a 26/30 with forged rods, cp 9:1 forgies (pretty sure it should drop to around 8.5:1 when the head goes on yeh? And a 1000hp TA45 with 1.05 rear? Its going to have a minor port job on the head, but im going to be using standard cams with adjustable gears and i also have a 550kw transbraked jatco currently with a 3800 stall.

any help would be muchly appreciated.
cheers

also, with this setup, would i be wrong to expect 450-500rwhp on pump fuel with around 23psi?
What are the pistons in the engine?? Are they RB30 CP's or are they the pistons needed to put the 26 head on a 30?? If they are normal RB30 CP's, for a single cam head, then forget it, it drops compression to about 7.5:1, however if they are to suit the twin cam head, they should be flat top or dome top, flat is 8.3:1 and dome top is 8.8-8.9:1 compression..

WHat intake manifold and exhaust manifolds are you using?? It looks like standard intake in the pics, can't see what the exhaust manifold is though, is th emanifold split pulse properly?? And whats the collector design look like?? Can you take a pic of it side on?? And also need the wheel sizes of your turbo, I take it its plain bearing?? WHat is the comp wheel and exhaust wheels sizes?? LEt me know these, and we'll work out what it should be doing;o)

Kyle.
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Old 17-05-07, 09:54   #44
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Just wanna add Kyle, I spoke to Luke about valve springs a while back, he did say the 5003Ds are too heavy, when I spoke with performance springs they only mentioned 2 sets available for RB30, the 5003Ds and the RR4s, Luke happened to have some of the RR4s (which are the softer spring) at work, he measured one up and said it'd work fine with the 1665C (pretty sure this is what I have).
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Old 17-05-07, 12:21   #45
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Ah, ok, well for everyone, I made a mistake on the part number, and the correct one for the softer spring is RR4, thankyou kindly for correcting me mate:o)

Kyle.
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Old 17-05-07, 16:19   #46
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Thats not my engine in the pic.
I'm using standard intake manifold and I'll be getting you to make me an exhaust manifold.
The only specs I have of the turbo are
AR 1.05 rear housing, 4inch outlet, split pulse
AR 72 comp cover 76mm front wheel
It's plain bearing
I'd like to use a smaller housing and I'm pretty sure I can get a .91 for it???

a rough estimate would be sweet :D
cheers
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Old 17-05-07, 18:00   #47
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I'd go as small as possible in the rear housing, a .91 would be almost perfect, and try and get a T4 flange one or TA45, not the big T6 footprint like what is on it now.

Spool will depend on compression and camshafts in your case, the turbo now being fixed. If you are yet to purchase pistons, you need to get the DOME top ones to suit a 26 headed RB30, CP make them, I can supply them if you need. These with a .051" cometic gasket give around 8.8:1 compression. I'd be tempted to then take another .020 off the head, and bump that to around 9:1 or as close as you can get to it. Some cams around 10mm of lift and 230@.050 duration (268-272) should get you full boost around 4800rpm, mainly due to the old school rear wheel and plain bearing nature of the turbo. A new style 76mm GT S trim turbo ball bearing, be that a garrett T51, a GT42R, or Mr Turbo T76, would make full boost around 300 faster than the turbo you have, purely for comparison sake.

Do you have the pistons yet and what cams have you got?? If either??

Kyle.
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Old 17-05-07, 18:22   #48
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He's gonna use standard cams
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Old 17-05-07, 20:23   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epitaph
He's gonna use standard cams
Quote:
Originally Posted by [.nugget.]
cost isnt really an issue, as long as its under 25k for the engine complete, ill be happy. if its over, so be it.

Why would you go to all the trouble of spending 25g on an engine (which is what he said his budget is) and use standard cams?
They are cheap in comparison???

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Old 18-05-07, 07:50   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [.nugget.]
Kyle, would you be able to give me a rough estimate on when i should get boost on my new setup im doing?

Basically It's a 26/30 with forged rods, cp 9:1 forgies (pretty sure it should drop to around 8.5:1 when the head goes on yeh? And a 1000hp TA45 with 1.05 rear? Its going to have a minor port job on the head, but im going to be using standard cams with adjustable gears and i also have a 550kw transbraked jatco currently with a 3800 stall.

any help would be muchly appreciated.
cheers

also, with this setup, would i be wrong to expect 450-500rwhp on pump fuel with around 23psi?

I dont know why either
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