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Old 18-09-17, 21:30   #1
The Ang
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My turbo conversion tuning woes! "Runs" so rich!

Hey guys, hope I can get some insight here. I'll be as detailed as possible.

Just recently converted my dual fuel RB30 N/a to turbo using stock parts.
I removed all the LPG system from the car. The motor ran nicely on gas before the conversion, but didn't run on petrol due to dead fuel pumps that were forgotten about.

Once everything was bolted on (including freshly o-ringed and filtered brown top injectors), upon cranking the car it didnt fire. I had spark and I had fuel - but no injector pulse. The LPG to Petrol switch had a wire that was spliced into the orange wire from the ECU (the orange wire was cut). When i removed the switch I connected the cut orange wire back together and this caused the no injector pulse. When I disconnected this orange wire my injectors starting firing.

So now it runs (very poorly, and soooo rich!).
I can't even get my timing light to flash when connected to the number 1 spark plug lead. I do however get it on the main coil lead.

The AFM is dummy put in place (in front of turbo) and connected.

From what I can tell the O2 sensor is alright. (2 wires snapped, but i soldered them back on).

The AAC valve was cleaned and made to slide nicer.

I pulled plug number 1 out and it was black! very black. Dry and not saturated from fuel or anything. Even soot was slowly coming out of the combustion chamber when I removed the plug.

The CTS looks green and aged?

The engine idles poorly with the AFM disconnected, stalls with the AFM connected (this could just be timing but worth noting).

Is there anything I've overlooked? Has the AFM been specifically adjusted for LPG?

Cheers guys
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Old 22-09-17, 17:39   #2
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What Ecu have you got in it mate? I know you stated stock parts so I assume stock ecu?

Try a different afm to rule that out, try putting new set of plugs and leads etc, start with the simpler things.

Also have an auto elec have a glance over it!
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Old 22-09-17, 18:58   #3
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http://www.calaisturbo.com.au/showthread.php?t=71798
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Old 22-09-17, 19:38   #4
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start the car from cold and once running pull of coolant temp sensor if idle dosnt drop a bit. id be replacing sensor. as it will be making the car run more rich. where if its working right once the car gets up to temp it will lean out the mix
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Old 22-09-17, 21:06   #5
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Thanks for all the replies good people.

Stock turbo ECU (3TA) to answer Katsa.

The car ran perfectly on LPG the moment before I started the conversion. It only took me a couple of weekends to install all the turbo parts (I've just acquired this car, it is by no means a project that i've been working on for years). So by that logic the AFM should be okay. I even tested it out and got the correct voltage readings (i know these tests aren't the be all and end all).


So with wanting to combat the richness I went to the wreckers and got a nice looking Coolant temp sensor and Oxygen sensor. After installing them the car now wouldn't start!


All my plugs were super fouled. I cleaned them up but no go. Swapped some suspect leads over with others in my shed - no go.
Installed a brand new CAS - no go.
I am getting spark, but its yellow.. it may be weak, but unsure on the spark quality of an RB30.
I tried cranking it while having the distributor on different notches and still couldn't get it to fire. I did manage to get a little cough but that's all.
I tried another 2nd hand CTS - no difference
I cleaned out the air regulator and AAC valves - no difference
Plenty of fuel is going to the injectors.

ECU codes are:
14 (I didnt drive it past 10km/h so thats okay)
21 (I didn't crank the engine so thats okay)
23 (TPS - I have a secondhand one here, I should install it and see)
31 (air con - not worried about that).

I don't know whats left, unless it is the AFM? I just read this: https://wiki.r31skylineclub.com/index.php?title=AFM

Maybe I should try a new one if it apparently causes a No Start issue.

Cheers
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Old 23-09-17, 13:54   #6
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After replacing the TPS with a nicer looking one, another 02 sensor, cleaning up spark plugs etc to combat this richness issue, she doesn't want to start anymore now. So i can't tell whether the issue is resolved!

I cranked it over while moving the dizzy throughout its range and it wouldn't fire. I did get a cough once but nothing.

I also just tested my AFM again, properly this time.

Base voltage (wires 3 and 4) is 1.13V (out of range)
When pins 1 and 3 voltage read 1.26V, OHM resistance (wires 1 and 6) were well over 1000.
When turning down the OHM to 382 or thereabouts, the voltage across wires 1 and 3 were like -0.70V.
Took the AFM out and the gauze was bent and flopping about inside the pod filter. I assume a backfire caused this.

Before I do anything else, im just going to get another one lol.

---------- Post added 23-09-17 at 13:26 ----------

Also in answer to Katsa's question, i'm using a standard turbo ECU (MTA).

I will also be ordering a complete set of ignition parts, can't hurt getting it to spark nice and strong!

I installed a brand new CAS but no difference. She isn't firing.

Thanks

Last edited by The Ang; 23-09-17 at 14:15.
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Old 23-09-17, 15:41   #7
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Fuseable link on battery?
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Old 23-09-17, 16:59   #8
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Fuseable link on battery?
The big plastic connectors near the battery post? Yeah they have continuity on both sides, I'm getting normal power I believe. Cranks normal, ECU on, 12v on injectors active with KOEO.

I'll try the AFM tomorrow, failing that I will start tracing wires from ECU.
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Old 23-09-17, 20:15   #9
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Ok so won't start now?
You have air
Do you have spark and fuel?
If yes then did you remove dizzy so timing is out?
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Old 23-09-17, 21:05   #10
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Ok so won't start now?
You have air
Do you have spark and fuel?
If yes then did you remove dizzy so timing is out?

Yeah not starting now.

Just spent some time on it tonight, I now have injector pulse (LED test light flashing while cranking).

I have fuel, the Inlet line is full, and while pump is priming it pours out of the inlet when I have the hose disconnected.

I pulled the crossover pipe off and sprayed some carb cleaner inside the throttle body and no change is symptoms.

I have spark - i get regular bolts of yellow spark arcing against the plenum while testing with the screwdriver trick.
I did however pull number 1 plug out and connected it to the lead and cranked the engine and it sparked alright.

I haven't ever removed the dizzy, only the cap etc for replacing the CAS. Everything in the dizzy has gone back together as normal (Isn't the first CAS i had to do).

Cheers
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Old 24-09-17, 08:10   #11
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Fuel lines going in and outta the rail not backwards?
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Old 24-09-17, 11:18   #12
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Fuel lines going in and outta the rail not backwards?
Bottom of the fuel pressure regulator is return and the top on the rail is inlet yeah?

Cheers
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Old 25-09-17, 23:10   #13
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I think I might have faulty fuel pump/s. I did a couple of preliminary tests:

- Removed the return line from the regulator, turned the key and petrol spilled out of the line that goes back to the tank. (Shouldn't the diaphragm be closed until too much pressure builds up and then pushes the spring up, letting excess fuel out therefore regulating the pressure to pre-set?)
- Crimped the return line shut and tried to start. Outcome: Cranks and little coughs trying to fire, but no dice.
- Crimped the inlet line before the rail, and turned the key. Outcome: Fuel pump sounded funny - check valve gone, not holding pressure?
- disconnected the power to the high flow pump, disconnected the line before the rail, key on. Outcome: No petrol came out when the internal pump was priming.

I will buy a pressure tester this week and do some actual gauge tests this weekend to rule out fuel pumps or the fuel pressure regulator.

Another note:

(When it was running) I was playing with the timing while idling. Everytime I gave it throttle and it stalled (rich) I cranked the car over while the dizzy's bolt was still loosened. Can this cause timing belt slippage/ skipped teeth or anything that will really mess up the timing?
I initially marked where the dizzy bolt was in relation to the boss cutout, and whenever I put the dizzy back to that mark (or anywhere else for that matter) it makes no difference.
I guess it can't hurt to go back to TDC and reset dizzy.

Thanks all..

Last edited by The Ang; 25-09-17 at 23:14.
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Old 28-09-17, 15:37   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ang View Post
I think I might have faulty fuel pump/s. I did a couple of preliminary tests:

- Removed the return line from the regulator, turned the key and petrol spilled out of the line that goes back to the tank. (Shouldn't the diaphragm be closed until too much pressure builds up and then pushes the spring up, letting excess fuel out therefore regulating the pressure to pre-set?)
- Crimped the return line shut and tried to start. Outcome: Cranks and little coughs trying to fire, but no dice.
- Crimped the inlet line before the rail, and turned the key. Outcome: Fuel pump sounded funny - check valve gone, not holding pressure?
- disconnected the power to the high flow pump, disconnected the line before the rail, key on. Outcome: No petrol came out when the internal pump was priming.

I will buy a pressure tester this week and do some actual gauge tests this weekend to rule out fuel pumps or the fuel pressure regulator.

Another note:

(When it was running) I was playing with the timing while idling. Everytime I gave it throttle and it stalled (rich) I cranked the car over while the dizzy's bolt was still loosened. Can this cause timing belt slippage/ skipped teeth or anything that will really mess up the timing?
I initially marked where the dizzy bolt was in relation to the boss cutout, and whenever I put the dizzy back to that mark (or anywhere else for that matter) it makes no difference.
I guess it can't hurt to go back to TDC and reset dizzy.

Thanks all..

My old VL only ran on LPG when I bought it. It ran perfectly.

After replacing the stuffed fuel pumps and injectors, it ran on petrol but was running rich, spluttering and carrying on. It would run perfectly when switched back to LPG.

I replaced the AFM and it ran perfectly on petrol. I don't think it needs the AFM to run on gas.

I eventually removed the LPG when I turboed and do recall the Orange wire to the ECU being connected to the gas set up. I simply rejoined the wire as it would have been from factory.
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Old 28-09-17, 22:10   #15
The Ang
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Originally Posted by VL_JOHN View Post
My old VL only ran on LPG when I bought it. It ran perfectly.

After replacing the stuffed fuel pumps and injectors, it ran on petrol but was running rich, spluttering and carrying on. It would run perfectly when switched back to LPG.

I replaced the AFM and it ran perfectly on petrol. I don't think it needs the AFM to run on gas.

I eventually removed the LPG when I turboed and do recall the Orange wire to the ECU being connected to the gas set up. I simply rejoined the wire as it would have been from factory.

I appreciate you sharing your experiences. Sounds like a similar story to me. Nice.

---------- Post added 28-09-17 at 23:58 ----------

So its not timing, I checked the timing belt, and distributor, all looks good, and sparks nicely.

It's not a fuel delivery problem or pressure! I get heaps of fuel and pressure to the rail.

I think the car is flooded, and everytime I crank it, the injectors are dumping in more fuel, still causing it not to start. She even turns over pretty quickly. I think the cylinder walls are soaked in fuel, causing minimal compression. Upon every crank there is a strong smell of fuel, and the car was running super rich when it was running. Now that could be because the AFM was faulty, but rather than take everything off again, I might as well concentrate on getting the injectors serviced and a new FPR. Rule them out once and for all.

Once done, and everything is back on, start the car in Flood Clear mode and go from there.

Wish me luck

Last edited by The Ang; 29-09-17 at 00:30.
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Old 30-09-17, 21:19   #16
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Good news, she kicked over and idles once again. (still rich, but I will buy a brand spankers CTS before I complain).

I replaced alot of things so I can't pin point the 1 thing that did it, but the following contributed to it:

I went to U Pull It and there was a fresh Skyline wagon in the yard, it was so fresh that I had to pop the bonnet myself! Nothing was taken from this beast yet and the engine was so clean and well looked after, imean even every single wire and connector look mint original. So beauty! I got stuck in!

First things first, I got the IAC and Air regulator off it (always the first things missing i've noticed).
Took the mint set of bosch leads, took the O2 sensor (had a fairly fresh set of extractors still in original Advance paint, so the O2 sensor wouldn't of been that old).

Back to my car, I also changed the following:
New spark plugs
Good set of leads (from the Skyline, my old ones were bent inside the rubber).
Replacement O2 sensor (all second hand units, so unsure on these yet).
AFM (second handy from Gumtree, I still need to test it. My old one was in pieces, probably from a gas backfire and the resistance was shot).
New coil
New CAS
2nd hand Coolant Temp Sensor (will buy new)
IAC housing part (with the fast idle thing. My old IAC valve was broken at the tip and had no spring. The broken part of the plunger was stuck in the housing and couldn't be removed no matter how hard I tried).
Fuel pressure regulator (from the Skyline - it looked nice and brassy).

Also my distributor was a "tooth" out. When I lined up TDC the rotor was just slightly past the number 1 post. I pulled it out, turned it back a smidge and put it back in and she fired right away!

This weekend I will get the multimeter out on the AFM and CTS. Also use the timing light and get it to about 15 or 20 degrees and go from there.
Failing all that I will check my fuel pressures.

Cheers!
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Old 02-10-17, 19:47   #17
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More good news. I didn't get another CTS as both of my second hand ones read correct resistance during different levels of warm up.

I used another AFM I took a chance on and realized what the issue was all along. The AFM's were sitting in the engine bay (not connected up to an intake hose) so they were reading the atmospheric air flow not the air flow in front or after the turbo. My guess is that the computer saw a discrepancy in air volume going into the engine and what the AFM was reading. Once I put it directly in front of turbo she ran better and revved freely AND no black smoke out of the exhaust!

Happy days!
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Old 14-10-17, 15:32   #18
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See, I said it was the afm.
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Old 14-10-17, 19:12   #19
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See, I said it was the afm.

Haha yep! I didn't realise how precious those little *******s are!

One thing I have learned now, whatever symptoms you get from your RB30, its either the CAS or AFM!
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