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-   -   Question about running gas in modified VL turbo's (http://www.calaisturbo.com.au/showthread.php?t=86696)

VLC-03T 06-09-06 14:45

Question about running gas in modified VL turbo's
 
hey guys, im thinking about converting to gas and claiming this $2000 through the new LPG scheme. but i dont really know anything about LPG systems. im thinking of going only gas. im currently running custom exh manifold, T3/T4, fmic, wolf to go in soon, with gtr injectors, and bigger pump (unless i convert)
im looking at 260rwkw
some questions i'v got are

do i still need a computer?
can i use a WOLF?
do i still need injectors?
can i use over size injectors?
can i legally modify my engine, due to EPA?
will i lose power when i convert?

also if anyone has any pros and cons, post them up

Blink 06-09-06 14:48

Paul is your man.

WooD 06-09-06 16:08

im sure paul cbf with ppl PMing him 24/7.

man all these questions have been answered so many times, stop being lazy and learn how to use the search function, you'll be suprised.

duz360 06-09-06 16:28

im no pro with gas but i can answer some of your questions

do i still need a computer? /yes,but all it will control is the ignition
can i use a WOLF? /yes
do i still need injectors? /if you want the full rebate you must strip the car of all fuel delivery gear
can i use over size injectors? /not if you want the full $2000
can i legally modify my engine, due to EPA? /im pretty sure you can
will i lose power when i convert? /yes as lpg doesnt have as much energy as fuel does so you will need to burn more lpg to get the same power as fuel

GAS747 10-09-06 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by WooD
im sure paul cbf with ppl PMing him 24/7.

man all these questions have been answered so many times, stop being lazy and learn how to use the search function, you'll be suprised.

haha mate you guys have NO IDEA how many PM's i get about LPG! LoL i cant answer them all it gets too much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by duz360
im no pro with gas but i can answer some of your questions

do i still need a computer? /yes,but all it will control is the ignition
can i use a WOLF? /yes
do i still need injectors? /if you want the full rebate you must strip the car of all fuel delivery gear
can i use over size injectors? /not if you want the full $2000
can i legally modify my engine, due to EPA? /im pretty sure you can
will i lose power when i convert? /yes as lpg doesnt have as much energy as fuel does so you will need to burn more lpg to get the same power as fuel

Why would u say ull loose power from converting to LPG? A straight LPG car will have the same power as a petrol car, if not more due to higher octane. U just gotta know how to build them ;)

Raptor 10-09-06 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by WooD
im sure paul cbf with ppl PMing him 24/7.

man all these questions have been answered so many times, stop being lazy and learn how to use the search function, you'll be suprised.


Dont speak for paul let him speak for himself..


And I know pauls secret.. His car is on the ROIDS. :D

duz360 10-09-06 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by VLMuzza
haha mate you guys have NO IDEA how many PM's i get about LPG! LoL i cant answer them all it gets too much.



Why would u say ull loose power from converting to LPG? A straight LPG car will have the same power as a petrol car, if not more due to higher octane. U just gotta know how to build them ;)

lpg has a lower energy output compared to petrol,so to get the same power as you had before you have to burn a lot more lpg

Raptor 10-09-06 16:33

and alot more air needed.. yes?

duz360 10-09-06 17:04

yeah well to keep the correct air fuel ratio and burn a lot more lpg you obviously need a lot more air.

its not a problem unless your turbo or head is at its maximum flow

GAS747 10-09-06 17:37

i dont see how a car with the EXACT same setup on straight LPG and Fuel means the LPG one will be slower? if LPG wasnt any good then why are there fast LPG cars out there?

Look at Jason's ESP, how many cars run 9.97 with Full exhaust and pump fuel??? the car weighs like 1800KG.. id like to see a petrol car do that without C16 (pump fuel only) and full exhaust:P

VLC-03T 10-09-06 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by VLMuzza
i dont see how a car with the EXACT same setup on straight LPG and Fuel means the LPG one will be slower? if LPG wasnt any good then why are there fast LPG cars out there?

Look at Jason's ESP, how many cars run 9.97 with Full exhaust and pump fuel??? the car weighs like 1800KG.. id like to see a petrol car do that without C16 (pump fuel only) and full exhaust:P

thats a good point actually, i never thought of it like that

duz360 10-09-06 17:50

im not denying that lol.
but if you worked out the amount of lpg you are burning to produce that power i think you would be surprised.

i just cut this from the lpg autogas site.

The fuel economy of Autogas-powered vehicles depends on a range of factors but on average, late model vehicles running on Autogas use approximately 30 percent more fuel than petrol-powered equivalents.

[T]Matty 10-09-06 18:03

LP Gas has less combustable energy then Petroleum.. No amount of 9 second runs will make science change

duz360 10-09-06 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by [T]Matty
No amount of 9 second runs will make science change

aint that the truth

JETLGD 10-09-06 18:14

If pump fuel had the same rating octane as LPG, there would be plenty more street cars running petrol running quicker times...and thats all thats holding us petrol boys back

shaun

FRASHD 10-09-06 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by [T]Matty
LP Gas has less combustable energy then Petroleum.. No amount of 9 second runs will make science change

I think thats voiding the topic. It was asked if 260kw's was achievable. The answer is simply yes.

No he wont need injectors.

No he wont loose power if done right.

His vehicle will be more likely to pass EPA requirements than if it had Petrol mods, ie, ECU etc etc

Pro's and Cons

Con red sticker on number plate.
Con No sub box in boot if large gas tank required.

Pro EPA friendly.


The comment regarding the energy in LPG vs Petrol, Butter has more stored energy than dynamite, but it how you extract it. If you built a gas car set up for petrol it will never run to it's full potential.

VLC-03T 10-09-06 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAS
I think thats voiding the topic. It was asked if 260kw's was achievable. The answer is simply yes.

No he wont need injectors.

No he wont loose power if done right.

His vehicle will be more likely to pass EPA requirements than if it had Petrol mods, ie, ECU etc etc

Pro's and Cons

Con red sticker on number plate.
Con No sub box in boot if large gas tank required.

Pro EPA friendly.


The comment regarding energy in LPG vs Petrol, Butter has more stored energy than dynamite, but it how you extact it. If you built a gas car set up for petrol it will never run to it's full potential.


ahh...... well thats about all my questions answered :)

thanks for all your help guys, i might look into costs now and see if it would be worth doing the conversion

GAS747 10-09-06 20:41

Yeh duz i know wot ur saying LPG burns faster and hotter, thats very true. But from a performance aspect, as long as the car is done rite it should be as good as petrol, if not better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AERO.cal.3LT
thats a good point actually, i never thought of it like that

thats the problem, most ppl never think of it like that. I get people saying to me, man 10.5 isnt fast for a VL and i agree 100%. But there aint many VLT's on pump fuel and full exhaust that run that fast. If there was most of them woudnt last long.

My car was build 4.5 years ago and the setup hasnt been changed since! This just shows how reliable LPG can be. There are a few other GAS cars in the same boat e.g. Jason's ESP and EZYTEN John's Ford etc.

Morgz 10-09-06 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by duz360
will i lose power when i convert? /yes as lpg doesnt have as much energy as fuel does so you will need to burn more lpg to get the same power as fuel

thats actually incorrect..the losing power part.. ;)

I have back to back test that proves on my setup, same boost.. I made an extra 60kw at the crank.

same turbo, same manifolds, same dyno and operator, only addition gas and computer.

VPW 12-09-06 09:40

Just because it is on lpg, does not mean you can just do away with all the emissions gear also.

The EPA still require you to run a) a catalytic converter and b) only have one intake mod (eg an intercooler OR a pod filter, not both)

sub box is fine in the boot, ive got a full sik sub woofa, two amps, a battery and an lpg tank (but nothing else lol)

Morgz 12-09-06 12:32

even though the cat does bugger all on a car running LPG.

Gas is certainly not to the answer to EPA issues, anyone thats called the EPA or an engineer will tell them this.

VPW 17-10-06 22:30

tuned my car today. Car seems to be making some decent power (enough to demolish the 2800 stall dominator :/) so cant report back on any dyno figures or alike yet, but will be at the track soon.

specs :
440cfm throttle body
twin b2 converters
twin big lock offs
single gas line t pieced in the engine bay
run of the mill unmodified sprint gas tank
decent highflow (t3/t4 with 0.50 comp cover, e trim wheel)

not sure of the jet size in the idle hose, but have a 2.2 jet in the progression hose.. probably still a tiny bit rich at cruise, but a lot better than before.

Have an unmodified 48 main metering rod in it also. Mixtures under full load (running 17psi) are 0.78-0.80 so a bit rich still, want to get it down around 0.83-0.84, but didnt have a leaner metering rod.

Timing is around 16 deg advance at fullboost with a microtech ecu.

the gas research stuff is very easy to tune also! I did it myself with a mate and his mixture meter in a matter of about 30 mins.


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